Well, since then I've been waiting for a press release like this one.
Awesome.
Now, I hate to see the money spent elsewhere rather than just being sent back to the treasury, but at least it won't be spent in Ohio.
While we face the biggest budget challenge Ohio has ever faced (thanks for the parting gift, Governor Strickland!), the last thing taxpayers need are further financial obligations for a public works project no one will use.
"We're sending jobs to other states!", screams the left.
First off, it's not the job of taxpayers to subsidize salaries just for the sake of people having jobs. That's simply not fair to the taxpayers.
Second, Keynesian economics doesn't work. Just ask the newly unemployed since the 2009 stimulus bill came into effect.
Don't get it yet? Watch this...
You obviously don't understand the broken window fallacy at all.
ReplyDeleteOr facts.
Over 100,000 Ohioans rode passenger rail this year, despite the limited access to such an option. That's an increase of 14% over the prior year. That is the system you false claim "nobody would ride."
"it's not the job of taxpayers to subsidize salaries just for the sake of people having jobs" And nothing the 3C would do that. Regardless, Kasich wants to use state tax dollars to not only subsidize "salaries" in his JobsOhio plan, which you support, but he even wants to have the State use more of its job training dollars to subsidize private companies' training costs at the expense of unemployed workers.
Criticize Kasich on either of those front and you'll sound less like a partisan hack who's just trying to spin for Kasich.
Indiana is taking Ohio's money. Congratulations, Kasich! You didn't get the jobs done.
Oh, nonsense, Esquire. Just to be sociable, I'll accept at face value your assertion that 100,000 Ohioans rode rail. Compared to the tens of millions that drove or flew? Statistically meaningless. And what infinitesimal percentage of that 100,000 would do so to get from Cincy to Cleveland at an average speed of 37 mph?!?
ReplyDeleteThis rail plan would have only provided start-up money - IF THAT - and then left enormous operating losses on the taxpayers of Ohio. Even a busy urban heavy rail system like Metra in Chicago loses tons of money. This white elephant (with apologies to white elephants everywhere) would have been a fiscal and operational disaster, and we're much better off without it.
First, the numbers aren't in dispute. Second, tens of millions of Ohioans didn't fly during that same period. Ohio only has a population of 11 million.
ReplyDeleteThird, of course, the number is low compared to other modes of travel, there's very little opportunity to have passenger rail in Ohio. Flying and driving is far more accessible. That's what 3C would equalize.
The average speed was not 37 mph. That's just a lie. The Plain Dealer, which endorsed Kasich, wrote in their PolitiFact that the 39 mph claim was false.
Enormous? The highest estimate was $17 million a year. AND that wouldn't be needed by the State until 2017 at the earliest. 3C was STATE BUDGET NEUTRAL through Kasich's entire term and then some.
We spend as much money painting underpasses every year or keeping rest areas clean that this project which would have lead to urban renewal throughout the State of Ohio.
Kasich made a huge mistake.
For a moment, let's assume that the $400 million should be spent on 'high speed' passenger rail. Where would the money come from to improve the system that would make it usable? Or, is someone suggesting that the $400 million system would be attractive for users? If not, how much more would it cost?
ReplyDeleteLooking for some answers here from the rail proponents.
I have no idea what you're trying to ask. Some of that $400 million was to improve our existing rail system to make it useable. That was the projected start up costs to get a statewide passenger rail service in Ohio.
ReplyDeleteThat included the full costs of building the stations, buying the rail cars, improving the existing rail system, and all other start up costs. Furthermore, the rest of the money would provide a federal subsidy leading the project to be revenue neutral for Ohio until, at least, 2017 or later.
And Kasich just passed on it. Brilliant.
That included the full costs of building the stations, buying the rail cars, improving the existing rail system, and all other start up costs. Furthermore, the rest of the money would provide a federal subsidy leading the project to be revenue neutral for Ohio until, at least, 2017 or later.I call B.S. on this. The $400 million was the opening salvo.
ReplyDeleteFor me, today is the happiest day of the Strickland Administration.
Of course, Anonymous, you have no actual FACTS to back up your comment.
ReplyDeleteBoondoggle...dead.
ReplyDeleteModern,
ReplyDeleteAny idea how many people work in Columbus but live in Cincy, live in Cincy, and work in Columbus, live in Cincy but work in Cleveland and so on?
Honestly, what is the reason that someone would need to go from say Cincinnati to Cleveland on a consistent enough basis to make the venture profitable?
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteSee my original post here: http://thirdbasepolitics.blogspot.com/2010/08/kasich-ill-kill-slow-speed-3c-choo-choo.html
ReplyDeleteI live in NE Ohio but grew up near Columbus, so all my family is there and I travel there quite a bit. Why in the WORLD would I want to take this train, when it will take longer, and cost more than driving? Not to mention I still need a ride once I get there. I'll stick to I-71, thanks!!
If there was a demand for this service, a private entity would supply it. We don't need another losing government boondoggle.
You lost, Modern. Your governor, your president, and your party were soundly rejected.
Dear Modern:
ReplyDelete"Kasich will raise alot (sic) of money. And he'll lose by at least twenty points. Strickland hasn't been one to toot his own horns. The campaign will, unfortunately, need to do some public education as to what Strickland has done the last three years as a result. But despite that, he's got strong job approval numbers that suggest no Republican candidate can be a credible threat."
But don't worry; I'm sure you see the train issue equally clearly.
Of course, Anonymous, you have no actual FACTS to back up your comment.
ReplyDeleteAnd what FACTS do you have? A government funded study perhaps? I think I've seen this movie before: Government study...doesn't pan out...cost overruns...optimistic estimates...taxpayers stuck...unhappy ending. But then again, maybe we could have a happy ending if we could just get the federal government to give us even more money.
Government studies, countless case studies, budgetary projections from all sides. You forget that the $17 million figure for what people have said the State would need to pay to keep this operation CAME FROM 3C's critics.
ReplyDeleteWhat Keeling and none of the other Kasich bootlickers here want to acknowledge is that this was a major failure by Governor-elect Kasich. He told the people over and over again that Ohio wasn't really in danger of losing this money to other states, that they'd be able to redirect this money elsewhere, and they were wrong.
You keep citing something I wrote in May 2009 as if I didn't acknowledge that if circumstances couldn't change. I think Keeling at one time talked about Kasich winning by double digits and with over 50% of the vote.
By Bytor's standards no road or airport would have ever been constructed. It's the government's duty to provide public works that stimulate the economy and lead to economic development because by their very nature such infrastructure projects cannot be undertaking at a profit. What it would do is help manufacturing, construction, and the tourist/services industry by creating new and permanent jobs.
Prisions, police departments, and schools aren't operated at break even or at a profit, would you close them too? The entire notion that Government shouldn't do things the private sector cannot do at a profit is nonsense. It forgets why we have both a private sector and a government.
If we could rely on the private sector to supply us with everything we need, we wouldn't have a government in the first place.
Fine, Modern. But in this case, there is already infrastructure in place for people to travel between the 3 Cs. Their called highways and roads. It is not the governments "duty" to provide an alternate mode. But even discounting that...
ReplyDeleteyou still cannot answer why anyone would take this train if by driving:
1. it is cheaper
2. it is faster
3. you don't need to make additional plans and spend MORE money on how to get from the station to your destination.
My federal tax dollars already subsidize a perennial money loser that goes by the name of AMTRAK. I don't need my Ohio tax dollars funding another loser.
That's my opinion. You state your opinion as if it were fact, which it isn't. Its your opinion.
Your opinion lost lost month. Get over it.
Government studies, countless case studies, budgetary projections from all sides.
ReplyDeleteThat doesn't make them facts.
What Keeling and none of the other Kasich bootlickers here...
ReplyDeleteThere you have it. Thanks for conceding the argument ME.
Part A: Thank God the 3C is dead. Kasich can be a crackpot, for sure, but even a crackpot can make a good call now and then. Stopping a money pit like the 3C from starting up is a good decision. Remember, Strickland first said $250 million would be enough, then suddenly his tuned changed to $500 million, Ohio applied for $563 but only got $400. The 3C was and is a stupid idea that only a gaggle of naive believers mired in the past could back with such blind abandon when other commercially proven train technology is out there. Pursing 19th century train technology would have cost all of us - especially the 99% of the population who wouldn't use it for one of a dozen reasons or more - billions we don't have now and won't have in the future. Sinking billions into a historically romantic but totally out-dated, steel-rail-based train technology that has clearly reached it evolutionary end is not smart. Any 3C booster who believes averaging 50-mph is a great leap over 39-mph has clearly left terra firma.
ReplyDeletePart B: How about this: Had Strickland invested the $400 million into a hot dog vendor and cart on every corner of every shrinking city in Ohio, serving affordable dogs to our growing population of hungry, jobless workers, more jobs would be created than the 3C could ever dream of. Even better, manufacturing the carts in Ohio would add more jobs. Selling dogs would also help Ohio hog producers and bakers. Everything about the 3C has always been about a vague "estimate," or was framed as "the first phase" of something that would "eventually" lead to something no one would use. We haven't had a 3C train for the last 40 years even though they first ran the route as early as 1852. We'll all be dead by the time the 3C approached completion. In black and white in the Ohio Hub Plan are reasons why the 3C is economically crazy. No one - especially reporters - dared talk about the fact that the 3C is only viable if the Feds fund 80% of it. What a hoot. Second, the 20% in state funding must not create a budget problem. A second, bigger hoot. Name another project that estimates losing tens of millions that our state development officials got behind? If their policy is to back half-baked ideas, lets do my hot dog cart idea or better yet, how about flying Ohio-manufactured passenger bi-planes [a la WWI, the equivalent of 3C train tech] from one county airport to another (TOD opportunities abound), low and slow like the 3C. When slow-train shills like Ken Prendergast repeatedly lie, saying "no high-speed rail service on the planet was ever built from scratch," he either lives on another planet or he's oblivious to the thousands of miles of 300-mph train track the Chinese are building every day from scratch. Prendergast should be ashamed of being so stupid in public on such a fundamental point. Only an addled mind in the tank for conventional railroads thinks incrementalism is the way to go. Real high-speed trains, the ones that travel in excess of 155-mph like CA and Florida want to build, meet the international standard for high-speed. Prendergast says he hopes that "cities and economic groups along the corridor might create their own authority to pursue the 3C project without state taxpayer help." Go for it Ken! [BTW: did you drive to work or did you take a bus, trolley or train?] Kasich would love private financing. Rustle up your own investors and fund the 3C with user-fees, why don't you? If your ridership numbers are as good as you say they are, should be easy, right? Until then, leave us poor overtaxed taxpayers alone. I'm sure municipal budgets of 3C station stops will be glad to chip in millions for your slow speed train plan. Mr. Modern is wrong when he says the $400 million could be used for train stations. It can't. Train stations are ineligible uses for this FRA money. ODOT applied to USDOT for funding for Columbus' non-existent train station but got shot down. Unlike the 3C, future smart cars will take us to our final destination, not strand us at some non-existent train station most cities, waiting for public transportation Ohio officials forgot to invest in.
ReplyDeletePart C: When slow-train shills like Ken Prendergast repeatedly lie, saying "no high-speed rail service on the planet was ever built from scratch," he either lives on another planet or he's oblivious to the thousands of miles of 300-mph train track the Chinese are building every day from scratch. Prendergast should be ashamed of being so stupid in public on such a fundamental point. Only an addled mind in the tank for conventional railroads thinks incrementalism is the way to go. Real high-speed trains, the ones that travel in excess of 155-mph like CA and Florida want to build, meet the international standard for high-speed. Prendergast says he hopes that "cities and economic groups along the corridor might create their own authority to pursue the 3C project without state taxpayer help." Go for it Ken! [BTW: did you drive to work or did you take a bus, trolley or train?] Kasich would love private financing. Rustle up your own investors and fund the 3C with user-fees, why don't you? If your ridership numbers are as good as you say they are, should be easy, right? Until then, leave us poor overtaxed taxpayers alone. I'm sure municipal budgets of 3C station stops will be glad to chip in millions for your slow speed train plan. Mr. Modern is wrong when he says the $400 million could be used for train stations. It can't. Train stations are ineligible uses for this FRA money. ODOT applied to USDOT for funding for Columbus' non-existent train station but got shot down. Unlike the 3C, future smart cars will take us to our final destination, not strand us at some non-existent train station most cities, waiting for public transportation Ohio officials forgot to invest in.
ReplyDelete